[Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Thu Nov 23 19:14:50 AEDT 2017

How long was a DAY before the Earth was formed and how many instruments were there in the Big Band?

Roy

From: Catalist [mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net] On Behalf Of Mick Cameron
Sent: Thursday, 23 November 2017 2:15 PM
To: catalist at lists.stawa.net
Subject: Re: [Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Great discussion,

My observation is that both sides are guilty of overreach. As a christian and a science teacher it is frustrating when creation scientists miss-use the Genesis account in the Bible. For a lot of church history the non-literal 7 day creation account has been acceptable. I’m led to believe that the majority view taught in theological colleges across the globe is that the creation account in the Bible does not describe a literal six 24 hour period. It is possible, and thoroughly fulfilling to be both a person of faith and a scientist. So maybe we’ll see a change in this apparent conflict in the future. I say let the scientists get on with exploring the physical origins of the universe. Christian’s shouldn't be afraid of natural selection and what we might find out through the objective scientific process.

On the other side, I’ve met many a young christian science student humiliated by an overzealous evolutionist. The way these young people/children are treated just backs them into a corner, makes them defensive and reaffirms their misunderstanding of a young earth. I have a colleague whose uni lecturer basically admitted before the class he was aiming to convince them to not be christian. I find both Lawrence Krausse and Dawkins have demonstrated this 'over-reach’. Science is perfect for testing the nature of our physical world through repeatable experiments. But it is less suited to answering questions such as “What is the meaning of human existence?”, "What happens after we die?”, “What should I do with my life”. I’ve read Dawkin’s The Selfish Gene and I came away wondering if there’s more to life than being a vessel for passing on this ancient DNA?

If we don’t interpret the Bible to mean the world was made in 6 days, then we are free to explore the possibility of current scientific theories. I’ve just finished teaching the Big Band theory in a christian school and we had a great time. I always start gently and get the kids to share their views regularly. You know what high school kids are like, they hate being told what to think. Present the facts, let them ask heaps of questions and don’t just force it on them. Please be gentle with these kids who have a young earth view and 'bring them along’ with you not isolate them.

For my christian brothers and sisters out there, I can recommend some good resources:

Centre for Public Christianity: John Lennox Prof of Maths- Reconciling of Genesis account and modern scientific understanding

https://www.publicchristianity.org/7-days-that-divide-the-world/?_sft_media=video <https://www.publicchristianity.org/7-days-that-divide-the-world/?_sft_media=video&_sft_category=science_faith> &_sft_category=science_faith

In my lesson recently I played a few snippets from the 2013 Q&A episode with Lawrence Krausse and John Dickson (check out 1:00, 12:50, 32:30 & 55:00)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC2k6jqkwRo

Regards,

Michael Cameron

On 23 Nov 2017, at 7:04 AM, Leon Harris <leon at quoll.com <mailto:leon at quoll.com> > wrote:

Thanks Graham, it is interesting.

When reading the bible, a certain degree of allegorical bendiness, that some might describe as playing fast and loose with what is actually written is used by many Christians, and indeed is necessary to derive non-contradictory meaning from that text. That is part of the toolset and armoury, "the religious method" if you like, that is needed to get the valuable and worthwhile content from that store of moral and cultural wisdom that is the bible.

My writing is not the same - it doesn't need that level of finessing to get meaning. I would very much like you to highlight in my writings where I have stated what you have claimed.

Cheers,
Leon

On 23/11/2017 6:42 AM, gpmcmahon1 wrote:

Hi Leon

An interesting discussion. Could you explain the logic behind your statement that the first cell didn't come from a deity because the existence of a deity cannot be tested? BTW have you seen the 2007 movie Flatland?

Cheers Graham 

-------- Original message --------
From: Leon Harris  <mailto:leon at quoll.com> <leon at quoll.com> 
Date: 22/11/2017 11:27 PM (GMT+08:00) 
To: Catalist  <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net> <catalist at lists.stawa.net> 
Subject: [Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia 

Well not from a flying spaghetti monster. Nor from any other being not supported by testable evidence.

Many, I suspect, haven't fully formed a view of who. At our current stage of cultural development, we are more focussed on working on how. At this time, we apparently can't see beyond the singularity of the big bang, but there is no evidence of a deity available between now and that point. If there were, scientists would be religious, because we deal in evidence.

When somebody discovers something, you are welcome to quote John 20:27 to me. Until that time, scientists will mostly remain sceptical.

On 22/11/2017 11:05 PM, SAMUELS Norbert [Balga Senior High School] wrote:

It could therefore be considered surprising that almost 60% of Australian adults believe that God or a supernatural being was behind the universe and all life, and the majority of these people do not accept the well-established theory of evolution but believe that God brought about this universe and life, fully developed and similar to how we see it today, out of nothing.”

Reference 1 URL:  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fsurvey-creationism-australia%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=kW%2BVP2t3RRQFo2dKg7br%2FiX5lG3b9KQn2z6Yj%2FPGzZw%3D&reserved=0> https://www.plainreason.org/articles/survey-creationism-australia/

So if creationist believe evryyhinh that we see today was brought about from nothing.

Where do evolutionist belive it came from?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------

From: Gregory Munyard  <mailto:gmunyard at iinet.net.au> <gmunyard at iinet.net.au>

Date: 22/11/17 11:21 am (GMT+08:00) 

To:  <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net> catalist at lists.stawa.net

Subject: Re: [Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia 

Dear All

What a pity we can’t be a bit more broad minded and accept that evolution doesn’t actually provide ALL the answers to the orgins of life (e.g. the “evolution” of DNA/ RNA polymerase, helicase, the whole protein synthesis system – without protein synthesis there is no polymerase), that there are many erroneous and fraudulent discrepancies (Haeckel’s embryos, the Biston betularia scandal) and that the science behind evolution is sadly lacking (we weren’t actually there to see what happened, so it’s not observational science). From my limited perspective, this post could equally be entitled “Belief in Evolutionist Pseudoscience in Australia”.  Now, let’s see the feathers fly.

Regards

Greg Munyard

From: Catalist  <mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net> <catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net> on behalf of Igor Bray  <mailto:igor.bray at curtin.edu.au> <igor.bray at curtin.edu.au>
Reply-To:  <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net> "catalist at lists.stawa.net"  <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net> <catalist at lists.stawa.net>
Date: Tuesday, 21 November 2017 at 10:41 am
To:  <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net> "catalist at lists.stawa.net"  <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net> <catalist at lists.stawa.net>
Subject: Re: [Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Dear All,

I’d like to thank Michael McGarry for raising the issues below, and in particular to those relating to the Australian Academy of Science. As a new Fellow of the Academy (FAA) I have asked that the page at the last link below be rewritten, and until this has been done, be removed from the site. It has now been removed, and I hope to see the new draft before it goes public.

Kind regards,

Igor

--

Igor Bray, John Curtin Distinguished Professor
PhD, FAPS, FInstP, FAIP, FAA
Head | Physics, Astronomy and Medical Radiation Science
Director | Theoretical Physics

Curtin University, GPO Box U1987 Perth, Western Australia 6845
Tel |       +61 8 9266 7747
Fax |      +61 8 9266 2377
Mobile | +61 4 0489 2862  

Email | I.Bray at curtin.edu.au 
Web Curtin |  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcurtin.edu.au%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=%2BCRgVl7IO0eyy%2FC3TqyCGAXgeNC9QFAgkN1e65dnIyA%3D&reserved=0> http://curtin.edu.au
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Curtin University is a trademark of Curtin University
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From: Catalist < <mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net> catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net> on behalf of Michael McGarry < <mailto:mmcgarry44 at gmail.com> mmcgarry44 at gmail.com>
Reply-To: Catalist < <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net> catalist at lists.stawa.net>
Date: Saturday, 26 August 2017 8:45 am
To: Catalist < <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net> catalist at lists.stawa.net>
Subject: [Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Greetings Science Colleagues,

“It could therefore be considered surprising that almost 60% of Australian adults believe that God or a supernatural being was behind the universe and all life, and the majority of these people do not accept the well-established theory of evolution but believe that God brought about this universe and life, fully developed and similar to how we see it today, out of nothing.”

Reference 1 URL:  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fsurvey-creationism-australia%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=kW%2BVP2t3RRQFo2dKg7br%2FiX5lG3b9KQn2z6Yj%2FPGzZw%3D&reserved=0> https://www.plainreason.org/articles/survey-creationism-australia/

“Fundamentalist Christians believe their entire religious edifice will crumble if they accept the raw facts of evolution.  The vast majority of Christians fully embrace Darwin’s Theory, yet Creationists persist with teaching their children the alarming myths of Genesis and the “literal truths” of the Old Testament.”

Reference 2 URL:  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fintelligent-design-id-and-irreducible-complexity-ic%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=Ew3hWX68jg4TSNJnhogStGbedPXZY1aEFBXTNpJJR1Y%3D&reserved=0> https://www.plainreason.org/articles/intelligent-design-id-and-irreducible-complexity-ic/

Why do 60% of Australian adults reject the Theory of Biological Evolution?

Hypothesis 1: Do 60% of Australian adults reject the Theory of Biological Evolution because: “In Australia’s public schools, students are now routinely exposed to evangelism from very conservative Christian groups?”

“Marion Maddox uncovers the surprising impact of these groups on once secular public schooling, and the ways in which governments have been persuaded to support their cause.”

Reference 3:  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.allenandunwin.com%2Fbrowse%2Fbooks%2Fgeneral-books%2Fcurrent-affairs-politics%2FTaking-God-to-School-Marion-Maddox-9781743315712&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=vTNjk%2BisRoehU5CFr0y19uSjAxVwlASVhL7vSEQCEkQ%3D&reserved=0> https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/books/general-books/current-affairs-politics/Taking-God-to-School-Marion-Maddox-9781743315712

Marion Maddox URL:  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mq.edu.au%2Fabout_us%2Ffaculties_and_departments%2Ffaculty_of_arts%2Fmhpir%2Fstaff%2Fstaff-politics_and_international_relations%2Fprofessor_marion_maddox%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=bFhvWau3VPbdBfR91X3NebEBWTNJ8pxvDHqL3DzQVmE%3D&reserved=0> http://www.mq.edu.au/about_us/faculties_and_departments/faculty_of_arts/mhpir/staff/staff-politics_and_international_relations/professor_marion_maddox/

Hypothesis 2: Do 60% of Australian adults reject the Theory of Biological Evolution because when students learn about biological evolution in their science classes, students with fixed religious-mindsets, ‘inherited’ from their parents and ‘churches’, reject the scientific evidence for biological evolution?

Religions and Australian Constitution Law and Politics

Colleagues may find these two papers on the interplay of religions, politics, and constitutional law in Australia most informative?

ICLRS URL:  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iclrs.org%2Fcontent%2Fblurb%2Ffiles%2FAustralia.1.pdf&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=ZOjxSEREV41aerOGtmkVmvbk3zybPuXB%2BuHQbomzIEo%3D&reserved=0> https://www.iclrs.org/content/blurb/files/Australia.1.pdf

CAROLYN EVANS URL:  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flaw.unimelb.edu.au%2Fnews%2FMLS%2Fprofessor-carolyn-evans-appointed-deputy-vice-chancellor&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=oU%2FHdLPR%2Fc0l2Uy5hhuXBo8JcJyNu6VVMMQQ9eVWS%2FU%3D&reserved=0> http://law.unimelb.edu.au/news/MLS/professor-carolyn-evans-appointed-deputy-vice-chancellor

AUSTLII URL:  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.austlii.edu.au%2Fau%2Fjournals%2FANZLawHisteJl%2F2007%2F3.pdf&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=QOvwXhNZEOWzu84%2F%2FXlIH8u9yTLurLTu%2FNCS4isA8PQ%3D&reserved=0> http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/ANZLawHisteJl/2007/3.pdf

CHARLOTTE BAINES URL:  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fadm.monash.edu%2Frecords-archives%2Farchives%2Fmemo-archive%2F2004-2007%2Fassets%2Fincludes%2Fcontent%2F20100217%2Fstories-around-monash3.html&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=NEbJAZoDmrOCW%2Fme7nAb8sgTFuGVjoX6FuaeiH5vKGM%3D&reserved=0> http://adm.monash.edu/records-archives/archives/memo-archive/2004-2007/assets/includes/content/20100217/stories-around-monash3.html

Religious Parents who refuse Medical Treatment for their sick Children

AIFS URL:  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faifs.gov.au%2Fpublications%2Fcitizen-child-australian-law-and-childrens-rights%2F8-medical-procedures-children&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=nEpG1sUktxo2nfWJ%2F1yZAGCbGT6xaCEZTXPHxWE%2BJYk%3D&reserved=0> https://aifs.gov.au/publications/citizen-child-australian-law-and-childrens-rights/8-medical-procedures-children

AVANT URL:  <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avant.org.au%2Fnews%2F20151103-court-intervenes-in-non-urgent-situation-for-child-of-jehovahs-witness-parents%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=KOh2d1ZGlYUupOhem7MFCKfdt32urrBtF7IBjFzbLJc%3D&reserved=0> http://www.avant.org.au/news/20151103-court-intervenes-in-non-urgent-situation-for-child-of-jehovahs-witness-parents/

KEMH URL: 

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