[Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

[Igor Bray]

Hi once more. For those contemplating coming to my talk at Future Science, please note a change of venue to building 204, room 234. I have edited this in the email below.

One of the things I will derive is how Universities (and Schools) should be organised. Those who believe that these institutions are primarily about the students will have some ammunition to work with! I will also be giving another talk about our research immediately afterwards in the same venue.

Lastly, thanks to Eric for letting us all know about the Krauss/Dawkins presentation. I’ve asked Lawrence to give a free presentation to High School students, similar to what we did a few years ago at Curtin. He is keen, though the tour promoter may not allow this. If people could let me know how many students they would be willing to bring to Curtin I would communicate this to him to help make it happen (free advertising for the main event!).

Kind regards,

Igor

From: Igor Bray <Igor.Bray at curtin.edu.au<mailto:Igor.Bray at curtin.edu.au>>
Date: Thursday, 23 November 2017 10:23 am
To: Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net<mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>>
Subject: Re: [Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Warm greetings to everyone.

It seems we all have our own take on life’s origin, and the big question of what life is all about. This is a healthy thing. For what it is worth, my primary interest is the utility of ideas: do they make the world a better place for all? If I may be permitted to promote my talk at Future Science<http://www.cvent.com/events/stawa-future-science-2017/event-summary-e560f01f8dee4711a6f3cbce941fa618.aspx> on Friday December 1, “Physics of Life, Universe and Everything” at 10:45 (session B3, building 204, room 234). I will use the ideas and the culture of Physics as a mechanism to derive ideas that do make a better world for us all. These ideas work for me. If they will work for anyone else, all the better.

With best wishes,

Igor

--
Igor Bray, John Curtin Distinguished Professor
PhD, FAPS, FInstP, FAIP, FAA
Head | Physics, Astronomy and Medical Radiation Science
Director | Theoretical Physics

Curtin University, GPO Box U1987 Perth, Western Australia 6845
Tel |       +61 8 9266 7747
Fax |      +61 8 9266 2377
Mobile | +61 4 0489 2862

Email | I.Bray at curtin.edu.au<applewebdata://88FA8217-EDE9-40F2-B470-C2962A11AFD8/I.Bray@curtin.edu.au>
Web Curtin | http://curtin.edu.au<http://curtin.edu.au/>
Web Physics |http://physics.curtin.edu.au
Web TP | http://itp.curtin.edu.au<http://itp.curtin.edu.au/>

[cid:90E6DF46-206B-41C4-BA45-1E4CC686BDC1]
Curtin University is a trademark of Curtin University
CRICOS Provider Code 00301J




From: Catalist <catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net<mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net>> on behalf of "SYME Eric [Thornlie Senior High School]" <Eric.Syme at education.wa.edu.au<mailto:Eric.Syme at education.wa.edu.au>>
Reply-To: Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net<mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>>
Date: Thursday, 23 November 2017 8:47 am
To: "leon at quoll.com<mailto:leon at quoll.com>" <leon at quoll.com<mailto:leon at quoll.com>>, Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net<mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>>
Subject: Re: [Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Hello Catalistians

Leon, what wonderful, erudite and relevant material you write…we all benefit when you contribute  to Catalist.

For those of you interested in this discussion please consider attending this<https://tickets.thinkinc.org.au/dawkins.html?utm_source=acmngo&utm_medium=sea&utm_campaign=ann> presentation next year.

An excerpt is pasted below:

Presented by: Think Inc
Believe it, unbelieve it, then believe it again - Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion, and The Selfish Gene) and Lawrence Krauss (The Greatest Story Ever Told...So Far, and A Universe From Nothing) are once again gracing the shores of Australia in 2018.
Both heavily respected scientists, authors, and public intellectuals in their very own right, evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins and theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss have been staunch ongoing opponents to the waves of irrationality that continually plague the public sphere. Revered for their unapologetic appraisals of critical thinking and equally-unapologetic takedowns of religion, the duo will weigh in on the current state of anti-scientific affairs with new leaderships, new attitudes, new irrationalities, and new news that still remain as more of the same.
Running Times:
Times are approx. and subject to change at any time.
Event Start: 7:00pm
Approx End: 8:30pm

Tour Dates:
Ticketek is selling for the following venues only
Wed 14 May
PCEC Riverside Theatre, Perth, WA<https://premier.ticketek.com.au/shows/show.aspx?sh=DAWKINSA18&v=RTP>

Sun 20 May
Darling Harbour Theatre, ICC Sydney, NSW<https://premier.ticketek.com.au/shows/show.aspx?sh=DAWKINSA18&v=DHI>


Eric Syme
Head of Learning Area - Science
[thornlie email signature]
E:  eric.syme at education.wa.edu.au<mailto:eric.syme at education.wa.edu.au>| M: 0400 765 536


From: Catalist [mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net] On Behalf Of Leon Harris
Sent: Thursday, 23 November 2017 7:04 AM
To: gpmcmahon1; Catalist
Subject: Re: [Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Thanks Graham, it is interesting.

When reading the bible, a certain degree of allegorical bendiness, that some might describe as playing fast and loose with what is actually written is used by many Christians, and indeed is necessary to derive non-contradictory meaning from that text. That is part of the toolset and armoury, "the religious method" if you like, that is needed to get the valuable and worthwhile content from that store of moral and cultural wisdom that is the bible.

My writing is not the same - it doesn't need that level of finessing to get meaning. I would very much like you to highlight in my writings where I have stated what you have claimed.

Cheers,
Leon

On 23/11/2017 6:42 AM, gpmcmahon1 wrote:
Hi Leon
An interesting discussion. Could you explain the logic behind your statement that the first cell didn't come from a deity because the existence of a deity cannot be tested? BTW have you seen the 2007 movie Flatland?

Cheers Graham


-------- Original message --------
From: Leon Harris <leon at quoll.com><mailto:leon at quoll.com>
Date: 22/11/2017 11:27 PM (GMT+08:00)
To: Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net><mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>
Subject: [Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Well not from a flying spaghetti monster. Nor from any other being not supported by testable evidence.

Many, I suspect, haven't fully formed a view of who. At our current stage of cultural development, we are more focussed on working on how. At this time, we apparently can't see beyond the singularity of the big bang, but there is no evidence of a deity available between now and that point. If there were, scientists would be religious, because we deal in evidence.

When somebody discovers something, you are welcome to quote John 20:27 to me. Until that time, scientists will mostly remain sceptical.



On 22/11/2017 11:05 PM, SAMUELS Norbert [Balga Senior High School] wrote:

It could therefore be considered surprising that almost 60% of Australian adults believe that God or a supernatural being was behind the universe and all life, and the majority of these people do not accept the well-established theory of evolution but believe that God brought about this universe and life, fully developed and similar to how we see it today, out of nothing.”
Reference 1 URL: https://www.plainreason.org/articles/survey-creationism-australia/<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fsurvey-creationism-australia%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=kW%2BVP2t3RRQFo2dKg7br%2FiX5lG3b9KQn2z6Yj%2FPGzZw%3D&reserved=0>
So if creationist believe evryyhinh that we see today was brought about from nothing.

Where do evolutionist belive it came from?



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Original message --------
From: Gregory Munyard <gmunyard at iinet.net.au><mailto:gmunyard at iinet.net.au>
Date: 22/11/17 11:21 am (GMT+08:00)
To: catalist at lists.stawa.net<mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>
Subject: Re: [Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Dear All

What a pity we can’t be a bit more broad minded and accept that evolution doesn’t actually provide ALL the answers to the orgins of life (e.g. the “evolution” of DNA/ RNA polymerase, helicase, the whole protein synthesis system – without protein synthesis there is no polymerase), that there are many erroneous and fraudulent discrepancies (Haeckel’s embryos, the Biston betularia scandal) and that the science behind evolution is sadly lacking (we weren’t actually there to see what happened, so it’s not observational science). From my limited perspective, this post could equally be entitled “Belief in Evolutionist Pseudoscience in Australia”.  Now, let’s see the feathers fly.

Regards

Greg Munyard

From: Catalist <catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net><mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net> on behalf of Igor Bray <igor.bray at curtin.edu.au><mailto:igor.bray at curtin.edu.au>
Reply-To: "catalist at lists.stawa.net"<mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net><catalist at lists.stawa.net><mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>
Date: Tuesday, 21 November 2017 at 10:41 am
To: "catalist at lists.stawa.net"<mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net><catalist at lists.stawa.net><mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>
Subject: Re: [Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Dear All,

I’d like to thank Michael McGarry for raising the issues below, and in particular to those relating to the Australian Academy of Science. As a new Fellow of the Academy (FAA) I have asked that the page at the last link below be rewritten, and until this has been done, be removed from the site. It has now been removed, and I hope to see the new draft before it goes public.

Kind regards,

Igor

--
Igor Bray, John Curtin Distinguished Professor
PhD, FAPS, FInstP, FAIP, FAA
Head | Physics, Astronomy and Medical Radiation Science
Director | Theoretical Physics

Curtin University, GPO Box U1987 Perth, Western Australia 6845
Tel |       +61 8 9266 7747
Fax |      +61 8 9266 2377
Mobile | +61 4 0489 2862

Email | I.Bray at curtin.edu.au<mailto:I.Bray at curtin.edu.au>
Web Curtin | http://curtin.edu.au<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcurtin.edu.au%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=%2BCRgVl7IO0eyy%2FC3TqyCGAXgeNC9QFAgkN1e65dnIyA%3D&reserved=0>
Web Physics |http://physics.curtin.edu.au<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fphysics.curtin.edu.au&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=CccUHWgF39oWzubOeFtNxDU1YxbYYhxhUsAD6kkbqrI%3D&reserved=0>
Web TP | http://itp.curtin.edu.au<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fitp.curtin.edu.au%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=f7G800NcNDWke4lGPX8gC2HP3nM%2FWhHFaiq6%2BYXYhEs%3D&reserved=0>

[cid:part15.52E71B49.4566F68D at quoll.com]
Curtin University is a trademark of Curtin University
CRICOS Provider Code 00301J


From: Catalist <catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net<mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net>> on behalf of Michael McGarry <mmcgarry44 at gmail.com<mailto:mmcgarry44 at gmail.com>>
Reply-To: Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net<mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>>
Date: Saturday, 26 August 2017 8:45 am
To: Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net<mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>>
Subject: [Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Greetings Science Colleagues,
“It could therefore be considered surprising that almost 60% of Australian adults believe that God or a supernatural being was behind the universe and all life, and the majority of these people do not accept the well-established theory of evolution but believe that God brought about this universe and life, fully developed and similar to how we see it today, out of nothing.”
Reference 1 URL: https://www.plainreason.org/articles/survey-creationism-australia/<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fsurvey-creationism-australia%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=kW%2BVP2t3RRQFo2dKg7br%2FiX5lG3b9KQn2z6Yj%2FPGzZw%3D&reserved=0>
“Fundamentalist Christians believe their entire religious edifice will crumble if they accept the raw facts of evolution.  The vast majority of Christians fully embrace Darwin’s Theory, yet Creationists persist with teaching their children the alarming myths of Genesis and the “literal truths” of the Old Testament.”
Reference 2 URL: https://www.plainreason.org/articles/intelligent-design-id-and-irreducible-complexity-ic/<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fintelligent-design-id-and-irreducible-complexity-ic%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=Ew3hWX68jg4TSNJnhogStGbedPXZY1aEFBXTNpJJR1Y%3D&reserved=0>
Why do 60% of Australian adults reject the Theory of Biological Evolution?
Hypothesis 1: Do 60% of Australian adults reject the Theory of Biological Evolution because: “In Australia’s public schools, students are now routinely exposed to evangelism from very conservative Christian groups?”
“Marion Maddox uncovers the surprising impact of these groups on once secular public schooling, and the ways in which governments have been persuaded to support their cause.”
Reference 3: https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/books/general-books/current-affairs-politics/Taking-God-to-School-Marion-Maddox-9781743315712<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.allenandunwin.com%2Fbrowse%2Fbooks%2Fgeneral-books%2Fcurrent-affairs-politics%2FTaking-God-to-School-Marion-Maddox-9781743315712&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=vTNjk%2BisRoehU5CFr0y19uSjAxVwlASVhL7vSEQCEkQ%3D&reserved=0>
Marion Maddox URL: http://www.mq.edu.au/about_us/faculties_and_departments/faculty_of_arts/mhpir/staff/staff-politics_and_international_relations/professor_marion_maddox/<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mq.edu.au%2Fabout_us%2Ffaculties_and_departments%2Ffaculty_of_arts%2Fmhpir%2Fstaff%2Fstaff-politics_and_international_relations%2Fprofessor_marion_maddox%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=bFhvWau3VPbdBfR91X3NebEBWTNJ8pxvDHqL3DzQVmE%3D&reserved=0>
Hypothesis 2: Do 60% of Australian adults reject the Theory of Biological Evolution because when students learn about biological evolution in their science classes, students with fixed religious-mindsets, ‘inherited’ from their parents and ‘churches’, reject the scientific evidence for biological evolution?
Religions and Australian Constitution Law and Politics
Colleagues may find these two papers on the interplay of religions, politics, and constitutional law in Australia most informative?
ICLRS URL: https://www.iclrs.org/content/blurb/files/Australia.1.pdf<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iclrs.org%2Fcontent%2Fblurb%2Ffiles%2FAustralia.1.pdf&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=ZOjxSEREV41aerOGtmkVmvbk3zybPuXB%2BuHQbomzIEo%3D&reserved=0>
CAROLYN EVANS URL: http://law.unimelb.edu.au/news/MLS/professor-carolyn-evans-appointed-deputy-vice-chancellor<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flaw.unimelb.edu.au%2Fnews%2FMLS%2Fprofessor-carolyn-evans-appointed-deputy-vice-chancellor&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=oU%2FHdLPR%2Fc0l2Uy5hhuXBo8JcJyNu6VVMMQQ9eVWS%2FU%3D&reserved=0>
AUSTLII URL: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/ANZLawHisteJl/2007/3.pdf<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.austlii.edu.au%2Fau%2Fjournals%2FANZLawHisteJl%2F2007%2F3.pdf&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=QOvwXhNZEOWzu84%2F%2FXlIH8u9yTLurLTu%2FNCS4isA8PQ%3D&reserved=0>
CHARLOTTE BAINES URL: http://adm.monash.edu/records-archives/archives/memo-archive/2004-2007/assets/includes/content/20100217/stories-around-monash3.html<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fadm.monash.edu%2Frecords-archives%2Farchives%2Fmemo-archive%2F2004-2007%2Fassets%2Fincludes%2Fcontent%2F20100217%2Fstories-around-monash3.html&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=NEbJAZoDmrOCW%2Fme7nAb8sgTFuGVjoX6FuaeiH5vKGM%3D&reserved=0>
Religious Parents who refuse Medical Treatment for their sick Children
AIFS URL: https://aifs.gov.au/publications/citizen-child-australian-law-and-childrens-rights/8-medical-procedures-children<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faifs.gov.au%2Fpublications%2Fcitizen-child-australian-law-and-childrens-rights%2F8-medical-procedures-children&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=nEpG1sUktxo2nfWJ%2F1yZAGCbGT6xaCEZTXPHxWE%2BJYk%3D&reserved=0>
AVANT URL: http://www.avant.org.au/news/20151103-court-intervenes-in-non-urgent-situation-for-child-of-jehovahs-witness-parents/<https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avant.org.au%2Fnews%2F20151103-court-intervenes-in-non-urgent-situation-for-child-of-jehovahs-witness-parents%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=KOh2d1ZGlYUupOhem7MFCKfdt32urrBtF7IBjFzbLJc%3D&reserved=0>
KEMH URL:


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