[Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Thu Nov 23 10:04:04 AEDT 2017

Thanks Graham, it is interesting.

When reading the bible, a certain degree of allegorical bendiness, that 
some might describe as playing fast and loose with what is actually 
written is used by many Christians, and indeed is necessary to derive 
non-contradictory meaning from that text. That is part of the toolset 
and armoury, "the religious method" if you like, that is needed to get 
the valuable and worthwhile content from that store of moral and 
cultural wisdom that is the bible.

My writing is not the same - it doesn't need that level of finessing to 
get meaning. I would very much like you to highlight in my writings 
where I have stated what you have claimed.

Cheers,
Leon

On 23/11/2017 6:42 AM, gpmcmahon1 wrote:
> Hi Leon
> An interesting discussion. Could you explain the logic behind your 
> statement that the first cell didn't come from a deity because the 
> existence of a deity cannot be tested? BTW have you seen the 2007 
> movie Flatland?
>
> Cheers Graham
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Leon Harris <leon at quoll.com>
> Date: 22/11/2017 11:27 PM (GMT+08:00)
> To: Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net>
> Subject: [Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in 
> Australia
>
>
> Well not from a flying spaghetti monster. Nor from any other being not 
> supported by testable evidence.
>
> Many, I suspect, haven't fully formed a view of who. At our current 
> stage of cultural development, we are more focussed on working on how. 
> At this time, we apparently can't see beyond the singularity of the 
> big bang, but there is no evidence of a deity available between now 
> and that point. If there were, scientists would be religious, because 
> we deal in evidence.
>
> When somebody discovers something, you are welcome to quote John 20:27 
> to me. Until that time, scientists will mostly remain sceptical.
>
>
>
> On 22/11/2017 11:05 PM, SAMUELS Norbert [Balga Senior High School] wrote:
>>
>> It could therefore be considered surprising that *almost 60% of 
>> Australian adults believe that God or a supernatural being was behind 
>> the universe and all life,* and the majority of these people do not 
>> accept the well-established theory of evolution but believe that God 
>> brought about this universe and life, fully developed and similar to 
>> how we see it today, out of nothing.”
>>
>> Reference 1 URL: 
>> https://www.plainreason.org/articles/survey-creationism-australia/ 
>> <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fsurvey-creationism-australia%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=kW%2BVP2t3RRQFo2dKg7br%2FiX5lG3b9KQn2z6Yj%2FPGzZw%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> So if creationist believe evryyhinh that we see today was brought 
>> about from nothing.
>>
>> Where do evolutionist belive it came from?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Gregory Munyard <gmunyard at iinet.net.au>
>> Date: 22/11/17 11:21 am (GMT+08:00)
>> To: catalist at lists.stawa.net
>> Subject: Re: [Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia
>>
>> Dear All
>>
>> What a pity we can’t be a bit more broad minded and accept that 
>> evolution doesn’t actually provide ALL the answers to the orgins of 
>> life (e.g. the “evolution” of DNA/ RNA polymerase, helicase, the 
>> whole protein synthesis system – without protein synthesis there is 
>> no polymerase), that there are many erroneous and fraudulent 
>> discrepancies (Haeckel’s embryos, the Biston betularia scandal) and 
>> that the science behind evolution is sadly lacking (we weren’t 
>> actually there to see what happened, so it’s not observational 
>> science). From my limited perspective, this post could equally be 
>> entitled “Belief in Evolutionist Pseudoscience in Australia”.  Now, 
>> let’s see the feathers fly.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Greg Munyard
>>
>> *From: *Catalist <catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net> on behalf of Igor 
>> Bray <igor.bray at curtin.edu.au>
>> *Reply-To: *"catalist at lists.stawa.net" <catalist at lists.stawa.net>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, 21 November 2017 at 10:41 am
>> *To: *"catalist at lists.stawa.net" <catalist at lists.stawa.net>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in 
>> Australia
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I’d like to thank Michael McGarry for raising the issues below, and 
>> in particular to those relating to the Australian Academy of Science. 
>> As a new Fellow of the Academy (FAA) I have asked that the page at 
>> the last link below be rewritten, and until this has been done, be 
>> removed from the site. It has now been removed, and I hope to see the 
>> new draft before it goes public.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Igor
>>
>> --
>>
>> Igor Bray, John Curtin Distinguished Professor
>> PhD, FAPS, FInstP, FAIP, FAA
>> Head | Physics, Astronomy and Medical Radiation Science
>> Director | Theoretical Physics
>>
>> Curtin University, GPO Box U1987 Perth, Western Australia 6845
>> Tel |+61 8 9266 7747
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>>
>> Email |_I.Bray at curtin.edu.au_
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>> _
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>>
>> *From: *Catalist <catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net 
>> <mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net>> on behalf of Michael 
>> McGarry <mmcgarry44 at gmail.com <mailto:mmcgarry44 at gmail.com>>
>> *Reply-To: *Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net 
>> <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>>
>> *Date: *Saturday, 26 August 2017 8:45 am
>> *To: *Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net 
>> <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>>
>> *Subject: *[Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia
>>
>> Greetings Science Colleagues,
>>
>> “It could therefore be considered surprising that *almost 60% of 
>> Australian adults believe that God or a supernatural being was behind 
>> the universe and all life,* and the majority of these people do not 
>> accept the well-established theory of evolution but believe that God 
>> brought about this universe and life, fully developed and similar to 
>> how we see it today, out of nothing.”
>>
>> Reference 1 URL: 
>> https://www.plainreason.org/articles/survey-creationism-australia/ 
>> <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fsurvey-creationism-australia%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=kW%2BVP2t3RRQFo2dKg7br%2FiX5lG3b9KQn2z6Yj%2FPGzZw%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> “Fundamentalist Christians believe their entire religious edifice 
>> will crumble if they accept the raw facts of evolution.  The vast 
>> majority of Christians fully embrace Darwin’s Theory, yet 
>> Creationists persist with teaching their children the alarming myths 
>> of Genesis and the “literal truths” of the Old Testament.”
>>
>> Reference 2 URL: 
>> https://www.plainreason.org/articles/intelligent-design-id-and-irreducible-complexity-ic/ 
>> <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fintelligent-design-id-and-irreducible-complexity-ic%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=Ew3hWX68jg4TSNJnhogStGbedPXZY1aEFBXTNpJJR1Y%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> Why do 60% of Australian adults reject the Theory of Biological 
>> Evolution?
>>
>> *Hypothesis 1:*Do 60% of Australian adults *reject* the Theory of 
>> Biological Evolution because: “In Australia’s public schools, 
>> students are now routinely exposed to evangelism from very 
>> conservative Christian groups?”
>>
>> “Marion Maddox uncovers the surprising impact of these groups on once 
>> secular public schooling, and the ways in which governments have been 
>> persuaded to support their cause.”
>>
>> Reference 3: 
>> https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/books/general-books/current-affairs-politics/Taking-God-to-School-Marion-Maddox-9781743315712 
>> <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.allenandunwin.com%2Fbrowse%2Fbooks%2Fgeneral-books%2Fcurrent-affairs-politics%2FTaking-God-to-School-Marion-Maddox-9781743315712&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=vTNjk%2BisRoehU5CFr0y19uSjAxVwlASVhL7vSEQCEkQ%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> Marion Maddox URL: 
>> http://www.mq.edu.au/about_us/faculties_and_departments/faculty_of_arts/mhpir/staff/staff-politics_and_international_relations/professor_marion_maddox/ 
>> <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mq.edu.au%2Fabout_us%2Ffaculties_and_departments%2Ffaculty_of_arts%2Fmhpir%2Fstaff%2Fstaff-politics_and_international_relations%2Fprofessor_marion_maddox%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=bFhvWau3VPbdBfR91X3NebEBWTNJ8pxvDHqL3DzQVmE%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> *Hypothesis 2:*Do 60% of Australian adults *reject* the Theory of 
>> Biological Evolution because when students learn about biological 
>> evolution in their science classes, students with fixed 
>> religious-mindsets, ‘inherited’ from their parents and ‘churches’, 
>> reject the scientific evidence for biological evolution?
>>
>> Religions and Australian Constitution Law and Politics
>>
>> Colleagues may find these two papers on the interplay of religions, 
>> politics, and constitutional law in Australia most informative?
>>
>> ICLRS URL: https://www.iclrs.org/content/blurb/files/Australia.1.pdf 
>> <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iclrs.org%2Fcontent%2Fblurb%2Ffiles%2FAustralia.1.pdf&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=ZOjxSEREV41aerOGtmkVmvbk3zybPuXB%2BuHQbomzIEo%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> CAROLYN EVANS URL: 
>> http://law.unimelb.edu.au/news/MLS/professor-carolyn-evans-appointed-deputy-vice-chancellor 
>> <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flaw.unimelb.edu.au%2Fnews%2FMLS%2Fprofessor-carolyn-evans-appointed-deputy-vice-chancellor&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=oU%2FHdLPR%2Fc0l2Uy5hhuXBo8JcJyNu6VVMMQQ9eVWS%2FU%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> AUSTLII URL: 
>> http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/ANZLawHisteJl/2007/3.pdf 
>> <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.austlii.edu.au%2Fau%2Fjournals%2FANZLawHisteJl%2F2007%2F3.pdf&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=QOvwXhNZEOWzu84%2F%2FXlIH8u9yTLurLTu%2FNCS4isA8PQ%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> CHARLOTTE BAINES URL: 
>> http://adm.monash.edu/records-archives/archives/memo-archive/2004-2007/assets/includes/content/20100217/stories-around-monash3.html 
>> <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fadm.monash.edu%2Frecords-archives%2Farchives%2Fmemo-archive%2F2004-2007%2Fassets%2Fincludes%2Fcontent%2F20100217%2Fstories-around-monash3.html&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=NEbJAZoDmrOCW%2Fme7nAb8sgTFuGVjoX6FuaeiH5vKGM%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> Religious Parents who refuse Medical Treatment for their sick Children
>>
>> AIFS URL: 
>> https://aifs.gov.au/publications/citizen-child-australian-law-and-childrens-rights/8-medical-procedures-children 
>> <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faifs.gov.au%2Fpublications%2Fcitizen-child-australian-law-and-childrens-rights%2F8-medical-procedures-children&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=nEpG1sUktxo2nfWJ%2F1yZAGCbGT6xaCEZTXPHxWE%2BJYk%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> AVANT URL: 
>> http://www.avant.org.au/news/20151103-court-intervenes-in-non-urgent-situation-for-child-of-jehovahs-witness-parents/ 
>> <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avant.org.au%2Fnews%2F20151103-court-intervenes-in-non-urgent-situation-for-child-of-jehovahs-witness-parents%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=KOh2d1ZGlYUupOhem7MFCKfdt32urrBtF7IBjFzbLJc%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> KEMH URL:
>>

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