[Catalist] Fwd: Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia

Thu Nov 23 13:45:34 AEDT 2017

Hmm… about this survey... How reliable are these results? 

I enjoyed reading your response Leon, as usual. Thank you. It is amazing what Darwin achieved with a lifetime of rigorous research into geology and biology throughout the accessible parts of the planet, and the scientific analysis he applied, to formulate the theory of evolution. And without the benefit of the tools we have at our disposal now. It has been called the most solid scientific theory ever!

I have pasted Leon’s first post on this topic back into the email stream as it is a wonderful read. And Alan Gent’s comments this morning.

Thanks also Eric. I have just bought tickets.

Best wishes
Elaine

************************************
Elaine Horne & Robin Groves 
PO Box 244
Mt Hawthorn  WA 6016
Australia

Tel: + 61 (0)417969349
Email: grovesr at ozemail.com.au
*************************************

> On 23 Nov 2017, at 8:47 AM, SYME Eric [Thornlie Senior High School] <Eric.Syme at education.wa.edu.au <mailto:Eric.Syme at education.wa.edu.au>> wrote:
> 
> Hello Catalistians
>  
> Leon, what wonderful, erudite and relevant material you write…we all benefit when you contribute  to Catalist.
>  
> For those of you interested in this discussion please consider attending this <https://tickets.thinkinc.org.au/dawkins.html?utm_source=acmngo&utm_medium=sea&utm_campaign=ann> presentation next year.
>  
> An excerpt is pasted below:
>  
> Presented by: Think Inc
> 
> Believe it, unbelieve it, then believe it again - Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion, and The Selfish Gene) and Lawrence Krauss (The Greatest Story Ever Told...So Far, and A Universe From Nothing) are once again gracing the shores of Australia in 2018.
> 
> Both heavily respected scientists, authors, and public intellectuals in their very own right, evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins and theoretical physicist Lawrence Krauss have been staunch ongoing opponents to the waves of irrationality that continually plague the public sphere. Revered for their unapologetic appraisals of critical thinking and equally-unapologetic takedowns of religion, the duo will weigh in on the current state of anti-scientific affairs with new leaderships, new attitudes, new irrationalities, and new news that still remain as more of the same.
> 
> Running Times:
> Times are approx. and subject to change at any time.
> Event Start: 7:00pm
> Approx End: 8:30pm
> Tour Dates:
> Ticketek is selling for the following venues only
> Wed 14 May 
> PCEC Riverside Theatre, Perth, WA <https://premier.ticketek.com.au/shows/show.aspx?sh=DAWKINSA18&v=RTP>
> Sun 20 May 
> Darling Harbour Theatre, ICC Sydney, NSW <https://premier.ticketek.com.au/shows/show.aspx?sh=DAWKINSA18&v=DHI>
>  
> Eric Syme
> Head of Learning Area - Science 
> <image003.jpg>
> E:  eric.syme at education.wa.edu.au <mailto:eric.syme at education.wa.edu.au> | M: 0400 765 536
>  
>  Hello, people.

Does it really matter what we believe? I know I was brainwashed liked most young children into a belief in some deity - we needed that sometimes. But only as children. As we supposedly grew up, we should have shrugged off childish things, and consigned all that to a category "Belief in Santa Claus". In a world where we have human beings occupying high offices with no more intelligence than the cow or chicken, how can we say that we are 'civilised'. The truth is, we can believe what we like, if it floats our boat - as long as it doesn't lead to violence. Unfortunately it does in a lot of cases. Millions have died or been abused - or even put under house arrest (Galileo) for simply re-stating what we already knew. Religion has slowed down the progress of scientific discovery to a staggering degree. To see how life could be, read "In the Days Of The Comet" by H.G. Wells.
Here endeth the lesson.

Alan Gent.

> From: Catalist [mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net <mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net>] On Behalf Of Leon Harris
> Sent: Thursday, 23 November 2017 7:04 AM
> To: gpmcmahon1; Catalist
> Subject: Re: [Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia
>  
> Thanks Graham, it is interesting.
> 
> When reading the bible, a certain degree of allegorical bendiness, that some might describe as playing fast and loose with what is actually written is used by many Christians, and indeed is necessary to derive non-contradictory meaning from that text. That is part of the toolset and armoury, "the religious method" if you like, that is needed to get the valuable and worthwhile content from that store of moral and cultural wisdom that is the bible.
> 
> My writing is not the same - it doesn't need that level of finessing to get meaning. I would very much like you to highlight in my writings where I have stated what you have claimed.
> 
> Cheers,
> Leon
> 
> On 23/11/2017 6:42 AM, gpmcmahon1 wrote:
> Hi Leon
> An interesting discussion. Could you explain the logic behind your statement that the first cell didn't come from a deity because the existence of a deity cannot be tested? BTW have you seen the 2007 movie Flatland?
>  
> Cheers Graham 
> 
> 
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Leon Harris <leon at quoll.com> <mailto:leon at quoll.com> 
> Date: 22/11/2017 11:27 PM (GMT+08:00) 
> To: Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net> <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net> 
> Subject: [Catalist] Fwd: Re: Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia 
> 
> 
> Well not from a flying spaghetti monster. Nor from any other being not supported by testable evidence.
> 
> Many, I suspect, haven't fully formed a view of who. At our current stage of cultural development, we are more focussed on working on how. At this time, we apparently can't see beyond the singularity of the big bang, but there is no evidence of a deity available between now and that point. If there were, scientists would be religious, because we deal in evidence.
> 
> When somebody discovers something, you are welcome to quote John 20:27 to me. Until that time, scientists will mostly remain sceptical.
> 
> 
> 
> On 22/11/2017 11:05 PM, SAMUELS Norbert [Balga Senior High School] wrote:
>  
> It could therefore be considered surprising that almost 60% of Australian adults believe that God or a supernatural being was behind the universe and all life, and the majority of these people do not accept the well-established theory of evolution but believe that God brought about this universe and life, fully developed and similar to how we see it today, out of nothing.”
> Reference 1 URL: https://www.plainreason.org/articles/survey-creationism-australia/ <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fsurvey-creationism-australia%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=kW%2BVP2t3RRQFo2dKg7br%2FiX5lG3b9KQn2z6Yj%2FPGzZw%3D&reserved=0>
> So if creationist believe evryyhinh that we see today was brought about from nothing.
>  
> Where do evolutionist belive it came from?
>  
>  
>  
> 
I used to believe that there was a kind of wilful deceit among those Christians who taught science and used all manner of known deceptions, flawed logic and selective omissions to attempt to discredit evolution.
If the last 2 years of world politics has illustrated anything, it is that there is a general, widespread ignorance of substantially important and fundamental concepts, and a lack of formal reasoning ability in our community. If I were a politician, I'd blame the education system :) . Daniel Kahneman, in his excellent and comprehensive book, "Thinking, fast and slow" has convinced me that human minds are not "engines of reason" but are subject to traps, tricks and shortcuts that often cause them to fail at reason. I am more inclined to take the softer line now of "never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence"!

Science, by its nature is tentative. Karl Popper, and in particular his emphasis on the doctrine of falsifiability brought this most strongly to light. Science, by its nature is open ended - it in and of itself doesn't ever claim have closed or "proved" (now don't you hate that word in a student lab report!) anything.

Christian theology, in stark contrast, calls for the acceptance, in the absence of any supporting evidence other than the collected and written myths and allegories of a several thousand year old middle eastern agrarian society. Recall the credo "I believe in God the father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and in all things visible and invisible...". This is the Anglican translation, the Lutherans and baptists use a slightly different set of words, derived from the same source but divergent according to the idiom and style of the english used at the time of translation. This requirement to accept belief means that Christian texts can have no meaningful thing to say about science from within science. Before the argument is started, it is closed - there is no hypothesis, it isn't testable.

Creationism is a folk belief - it arises from a cultural artefact - the bible - that purports to be the word of God, and the attempts of certain groups of Christian to grant the status of "the word of God" to this collection of sacred myths and allegories.

To accept that creation science, which is closed, doctrinal, predetermined and dependent on Sofist arguments to even get up, has an equal place to evolutionary biology is just ridiculous. Even the name hints at it's inner dishonesty - it is not science.

To claim that, because at this time the evolutionary theory, does not completely answer in a manner that closes off all further enquiry, demonstrates either ignorance as to the nature of science or intellectual dishonesty. Science is ongoing, subject to challenge and new findings. To date, not one , that's right NONE of the new findings have been incompatible with Darwins original idea. As we have learned more, we have modified and extended Darwins original concept. Darwin didn't know about genes, or DNA, or really proteins either. He had no molecular tools, and only his clear and formal reasoning skills to work with. Despite that, his original idea stands. It is not a question of liking the idea, or of being comfortable with it. Not one person has been able to overturn it. If you read the various Christian pamphlets that some of the sects produce - especially some of the baptist picture books, or the Witness' The Watch Tower, you will find that each and every Darwin "knockdown" sits on top of a known misconception, distortion, or lie. It is intellectually dishonest, intentionally misleading, and fraudulent.

Interviews with those who formerly held such views and pedalled these "straw-man" style of lies about evolution can be revealing. Perhaps the motivation is a "self- blindness", that those who belong want to believe/ are so tightly bound to that group identity that they skim over any fact that refutes their stance. Perhaps an element of "serving the greater good" steps in - it is ok to lie to the heathen to save them.

However, we teach Science. It is not ok to teach creationism in a Science class. Creationism, or rebadged so as to get its passport stamped, creation science, is not science, it lacks the necessary requirement of being falsifiable. It is Not Science!

I think that any Christian school should be allowed to to practice its faith and teach its lore to its students. But not in science classes, because that is fraudulent. School, especially when substantially funded by the State, should be about intellectual honesty, and it is false advertising to equate Christian science with science. Thankfully, it has been my experience and understanding that most Christian schools do not do this, and that mostly in this country, Science is properly taught, according to its own disciplines, practices and intellectual framework.
In this context, I personally do not have a problem with the original wording of the AAS:

“The [Australian] Academy [of Science] sees no objection to the teaching of creationism in schools as part of a course in dogmatic or comparative religion, or in some other non-scientific context.”

Although to me that issue is granted greater attention than it warrants. It is more of a middle back page disclaimer, in my eyes!

I also think that stridently tackling the teaching of creationism in schools, of "upping the ante because you are losing" is the wrong thing for the AAS to do. Their first reasoning of this was correct, and the choice to change the stance should not depend on where one side sits in a populist poll. I'd personally like to see the AAS keep the high moral ground on this, and hold to its original principles. 

Cheers,
Leon

_______________________________________________
Catalist mailing list
> 
>  
>  
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Gregory Munyard <gmunyard at iinet.net.au> <mailto:gmunyard at iinet.net.au>
> Date: 22/11/17 11:21 am (GMT+08:00)
> To: catalist at lists.stawa.net <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>
> Subject: Re: [Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia
>  
> Dear All
>  
> What a pity we can’t be a bit more broad minded and accept that evolution doesn’t actually provide ALL the answers to the orgins of life (e.g. the “evolution” of DNA/ RNA polymerase, helicase, the whole protein synthesis system – without protein synthesis there is no polymerase), that there are many erroneous and fraudulent discrepancies (Haeckel’s embryos, the Biston betularia scandal) and that the science behind evolution is sadly lacking (we weren’t actually there to see what happened, so it’s not observational science). From my limited perspective, this post could equally be entitled “Belief in Evolutionist Pseudoscience in Australia”.  Now, let’s see the feathers fly.
>  
> Regards
>  
> Greg Munyard
>  
> From: Catalist <catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net> <mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net> on behalf of Igor Bray <igor.bray at curtin.edu.au> <mailto:igor.bray at curtin.edu.au>
> Reply-To: "catalist at lists.stawa.net" <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net> <catalist at lists.stawa.net> <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>
> Date: Tuesday, 21 November 2017 at 10:41 am
> To: "catalist at lists.stawa.net" <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net> <catalist at lists.stawa.net> <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>
> Subject: Re: [Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia
>  
> Dear All,
>  
> I’d like to thank Michael McGarry for raising the issues below, and in particular to those relating to the Australian Academy of Science. As a new Fellow of the Academy (FAA) I have asked that the page at the last link below be rewritten, and until this has been done, be removed from the site. It has now been removed, and I hope to see the new draft before it goes public.
>  
> Kind regards,
>  
> Igor
>  
> --
> Igor Bray, John Curtin Distinguished Professor
> PhD, FAPS, FInstP, FAIP, FAA
> Head | Physics, Astronomy and Medical Radiation Science
> Director | Theoretical Physics
> 
> Curtin University, GPO Box U1987 Perth, Western Australia 6845
> Tel |       +61 8 9266 7747
> Fax |      +61 8 9266 2377
> Mobile | +61 4 0489 2862  
> 
> Email | I.Bray at curtin.edu.au <mailto:I.Bray at curtin.edu.au> 
> Web Curtin | http://curtin.edu.au <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcurtin.edu.au%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=%2BCRgVl7IO0eyy%2FC3TqyCGAXgeNC9QFAgkN1e65dnIyA%3D&reserved=0>
> Web Physics |http://physics.curtin.edu.au <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fphysics.curtin.edu.au&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=CccUHWgF39oWzubOeFtNxDU1YxbYYhxhUsAD6kkbqrI%3D&reserved=0>
> Web TP | http://itp.curtin.edu.au <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fitp.curtin.edu.au%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=f7G800NcNDWke4lGPX8gC2HP3nM%2FWhHFaiq6%2BYXYhEs%3D&reserved=0>
> 
> 
> Curtin University is a trademark of Curtin University
> CRICOS Provider Code 00301J
>  
>  
> From: Catalist <catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net <mailto:catalist-bounces at lists.stawa.net>> on behalf of Michael McGarry <mmcgarry44 at gmail.com <mailto:mmcgarry44 at gmail.com>>
> Reply-To: Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>>
> Date: Saturday, 26 August 2017 8:45 am
> To: Catalist <catalist at lists.stawa.net <mailto:catalist at lists.stawa.net>>
> Subject: [Catalist] Belief in Creationist Pseudoscience in Australia
>  
> Greetings Science Colleagues,
> “It could therefore be considered surprising that almost 60% of Australian adults believe that God or a supernatural being was behind the universe and all life, and the majority of these people do not accept the well-established theory of evolution but believe that God brought about this universe and life, fully developed and similar to how we see it today, out of nothing.”
> Reference 1 URL: https://www.plainreason.org/articles/survey-creationism-australia/ <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fsurvey-creationism-australia%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=kW%2BVP2t3RRQFo2dKg7br%2FiX5lG3b9KQn2z6Yj%2FPGzZw%3D&reserved=0>
> “Fundamentalist Christians believe their entire religious edifice will crumble if they accept the raw facts of evolution.  The vast majority of Christians fully embrace Darwin’s Theory, yet Creationists persist with teaching their children the alarming myths of Genesis and the “literal truths” of the Old Testament.”
> Reference 2 URL: https://www.plainreason.org/articles/intelligent-design-id-and-irreducible-complexity-ic/ <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plainreason.org%2Farticles%2Fintelligent-design-id-and-irreducible-complexity-ic%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=Ew3hWX68jg4TSNJnhogStGbedPXZY1aEFBXTNpJJR1Y%3D&reserved=0>
> Why do 60% of Australian adults reject the Theory of Biological Evolution?
> Hypothesis 1: Do 60% of Australian adults reject the Theory of Biological Evolution because: “In Australia’s public schools, students are now routinely exposed to evangelism from very conservative Christian groups?”
> “Marion Maddox uncovers the surprising impact of these groups on once secular public schooling, and the ways in which governments have been persuaded to support their cause.”
> Reference 3: https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/books/general-books/current-affairs-politics/Taking-God-to-School-Marion-Maddox-9781743315712 <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.allenandunwin.com%2Fbrowse%2Fbooks%2Fgeneral-books%2Fcurrent-affairs-politics%2FTaking-God-to-School-Marion-Maddox-9781743315712&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=vTNjk%2BisRoehU5CFr0y19uSjAxVwlASVhL7vSEQCEkQ%3D&reserved=0>
> Marion Maddox URL: http://www.mq.edu.au/about_us/faculties_and_departments/faculty_of_arts/mhpir/staff/staff-politics_and_international_relations/professor_marion_maddox/ <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mq.edu.au%2Fabout_us%2Ffaculties_and_departments%2Ffaculty_of_arts%2Fmhpir%2Fstaff%2Fstaff-politics_and_international_relations%2Fprofessor_marion_maddox%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=bFhvWau3VPbdBfR91X3NebEBWTNJ8pxvDHqL3DzQVmE%3D&reserved=0>
> Hypothesis 2: Do 60% of Australian adults reject the Theory of Biological Evolution because when students learn about biological evolution in their science classes, students with fixed religious-mindsets, ‘inherited’ from their parents and ‘churches’, reject the scientific evidence for biological evolution?
> Religions and Australian Constitution Law and Politics
> Colleagues may find these two papers on the interplay of religions, politics, and constitutional law in Australia most informative?
> ICLRS URL: https://www.iclrs.org/content/blurb/files/Australia.1.pdf <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iclrs.org%2Fcontent%2Fblurb%2Ffiles%2FAustralia.1.pdf&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=ZOjxSEREV41aerOGtmkVmvbk3zybPuXB%2BuHQbomzIEo%3D&reserved=0>
> CAROLYN EVANS URL: http://law.unimelb.edu.au/news/MLS/professor-carolyn-evans-appointed-deputy-vice-chancellor <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flaw.unimelb.edu.au%2Fnews%2FMLS%2Fprofessor-carolyn-evans-appointed-deputy-vice-chancellor&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=oU%2FHdLPR%2Fc0l2Uy5hhuXBo8JcJyNu6VVMMQQ9eVWS%2FU%3D&reserved=0>
> AUSTLII URL: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/ANZLawHisteJl/2007/3.pdf <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.austlii.edu.au%2Fau%2Fjournals%2FANZLawHisteJl%2F2007%2F3.pdf&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=QOvwXhNZEOWzu84%2F%2FXlIH8u9yTLurLTu%2FNCS4isA8PQ%3D&reserved=0>
> CHARLOTTE BAINES URL: http://adm.monash.edu/records-archives/archives/memo-archive/2004-2007/assets/includes/content/20100217/stories-around-monash3.html <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fadm.monash.edu%2Frecords-archives%2Farchives%2Fmemo-archive%2F2004-2007%2Fassets%2Fincludes%2Fcontent%2F20100217%2Fstories-around-monash3.html&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=NEbJAZoDmrOCW%2Fme7nAb8sgTFuGVjoX6FuaeiH5vKGM%3D&reserved=0>
> Religious Parents who refuse Medical Treatment for their sick Children
> AIFS URL: https://aifs.gov.au/publications/citizen-child-australian-law-and-childrens-rights/8-medical-procedures-children <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faifs.gov.au%2Fpublications%2Fcitizen-child-australian-law-and-childrens-rights%2F8-medical-procedures-children&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=nEpG1sUktxo2nfWJ%2F1yZAGCbGT6xaCEZTXPHxWE%2BJYk%3D&reserved=0>
> AVANT URL: http://www.avant.org.au/news/20151103-court-intervenes-in-non-urgent-situation-for-child-of-jehovahs-witness-parents/ <https://apac01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avant.org.au%2Fnews%2F20151103-court-intervenes-in-non-urgent-situation-for-child-of-jehovahs-witness-parents%2F&data=02%7C01%7CNorbert.Samuels%40education.wa.edu.au%7C0d121db9d2b04814cd2d08d531582411%7Ce08016f9d1fd4cbb83b0b76eb4361627%7C0%7C0%7C636469177019645511&sdata=KOh2d1ZGlYUupOhem7MFCKfdt32urrBtF7IBjFzbLJc%3D&reserved=0>
> KEMH URL:
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Catalist mailing list
> Catalist at lists.stawa.net <mailto:Catalist at lists.stawa.net>
> http://lists.stawa.net/mailman/listinfo/catalist_lists.stawa.net <http://lists.stawa.net/mailman/listinfo/catalist_lists.stawa.net>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.stawa.net/pipermail/catalist_lists.stawa.net/attachments/20171123/d6e164ec/attachment.html>